Ball fling disrupts many game modes

PurePeppermintz · Oct 19, 2023

komikoza i stated catching boomerangs in real life because how it was worded. i was under the impression of catching the boomerang mid throw and throwing it back.

this is a bug for sure and should not function like so.

komikoza · Oct 19, 2023

PurePeppermintz Oh, for sure, it was directed at the Animal, not you per se. I was just using it as an example.

It's a fairly common issue with them, most people prefer to just not go for boomerangs and get other weapons instead. After the 1st throw it bugs and becomes a game ending trap for the next unfortunate person to get it.

It is fun to witness no doubt about it, I laugh every time, but I'm also of the opinion it has to be gone from the game.

Come to think of it, would be pretty cool if the boomerang actually came back to you.

AnimaI · Oct 19, 2023

komikoza

"I am calling out what seems to be a hypocrisy moment in hopes to understand the kind of vision for the game you got there going, to see if there is common ground to stand on." Presumptuous of you, and somewhat rude, I feel.

"I don't think there is any though, I am just more and more confused as a result."
You don't think there is any vision for the game I have going? Also presumptuous and rude, keep going. Unless I misunderstood, and you're saying you don't think there is any hypocrisy; then I would agree, because of the points I numerated previously.

"At one hand you protect the original game design and dev vision, yet on the other you advocate for something that is not looking like it's intended at all."

How do you expect to know what was intended? We aren't the developers. I might add, sometimes a game developer may see something happen with their design, and they might like it. So it becomes an accidental intention.
I'm not "conservative"; meaning... I AM open to the game changing. I just don't want nerfs. Nerfs in gaming, from my perspective, tends to make games less fun. I'm open to the game changing in fun ways... Nerfs are not fun, in my opinion. It's also true that by nerfing a weapon that makes someone who is not good at the game win sometimes, they might take away from the excitement those people get when they play the game. I don't want that.
Maybe you don't understand, so let me repeat it, I'm not against all changes in the game design or vision. I don't protect the original in all instances. Life, like art, is nuanced. Not everything is all black, or all white. It's checkered.'

With both ending up in the "fun" argument that is the subjective vision you have for it based on the selectively picked things that you like, dismissing everything else.
I'm trying to put aside the fun argument and use other arguments now.

I will leave any personal arguments aside after I say the following:
So in other words, "I'll leave any personal arguments aside after I give you a personal argument". Classic.

**So far, you're giving me the impression that lord forbid the developers listen to these "whiners that have no concept of fun in their minds" and introduce at least a single change that is being asked for (even if it's a justified fix), you're going to bash them into oblivion for not having a backbone or something along the lines for ruining your fun. That is a dangerous territory to navigate. I hope I am mistaken, but if I hit close, please reconsider. **
Of course I'm not going to bash the developers. ONCE AGAIN SIR, you are being PRESUMPTUOUS, and RUDE.

The argument about the accessibility is true"
Yes

"but I am not worried about the execution of the "trick", even though the fact alone that you have to press 3 buttons that don't make sense to be used together is odd enough. It is the fact that the game won't tell or hint at anything like this, and people will definitely not know about its existence. It is the fact that this collides with multiple map designs, and Trebuchet really is the best example of it.
Besides trebuchet, which other map designs conflict with it? Name one. It works SPLENDIDLY with football, and makes it closer to actual football. As for trebuchet, this can be easily fixed by having the bombs only ignite from being launched from the trebuchet. However personally (get ready for a subjective opinion), I think it adds to the variety of the map if you can either throw bombs or launch them, and you can launch yourself with the trebuchet to punch anyone who tries to throw them.

"Imagine the tip screen being like:
Hey, you have to grab bombs and put them in the Trebuchet to then launch'em to the enemy base. This is how we designed the map. But you can also totally bypass the Trebuchet and use a combination of buttons that we never told you about so you can launch the bombs into the enemy base just with your character standing in one place cause it's fun, seeya!"
Perfect! I love it! Again, my subjective opinion, but I like that. Except one thing, they wouldn't say "that we never told you about" in that message, because they would have then told you about it. Maybe it's something the developers didn't know when they designed it, but not necessarily something that they would have to be against.

"I don't understand the "laws of physics" and "real life" arguments in this either, especially when it's applied to the game. Physics based engines and games are widely known for their exceptional erratic bugginess and difficulty in handling (there's bound to be issues), and why apply "real life" (like dropkicks killing people at the start) to a cute animal brawler game that is like the exact opposite of that? While also saying no justification is needed anywhere?
Boomerang launching people in space is very fun, why remove that? It's random and chaotic, perfectly aligning with the theme of the game, and hilarious when you see it the first time. Just throw it once and don't pick it up again the second time, it's that easy. /s
^ This is what it looks like from a side. I don't think anybody cares whether its "correct according to the laws of physics", you agree it is buggy so where does that leave us? It's easier for everybody to call that a "bug" rather than label it "a feature that is correct from the laws of physics standpoint but seems not intended and ruining games".

I knew you would say something like that, which is why I brought up the boomerang counterpoint to illustrate that there is a difference between finding out a way to leverage your character's joint positions, movement, and weight calibrations to get a larger output when you throw items, and actually encountering something that wouldn't even work in real life physics. There is a difference. I hope you can see that. I hope you also understand that I only brought that point upp to show you that not all physics based phenomena such as these are equal. Some totally work for the game. Others are more questionable. Personally, I love the boomerang surprise launch. It's funny! Others might call it a bug though.
They would be objectively more justified in doing so than you are to call this a bug. This is something that can be accomplished with actual laws of physics. That is not. There's the difference.

People should be able to throw things really far.
That works out REALLY well in BEAST Football. That isn't some ridiculous physics bending concept to get more leverage for your throw. It's just a little combo move to get more distance on your throw which can make passing in football a LOT more fun, ANNNNND, MAYBE
They might even be able to use that concept to create a BASKETBALL MAP!

"That being said, I stand my ground. The game is tons of fun, and its game modes are cleverly designed, to see that design being bypassed doesn't seem like fun to me, but that's just my take on it. I support the OP. "
Agree to disagree. I stand my ground, also. I do not support the OP. I support the person who discovered this amazing technique.

And I hope, and will request, that the developer considers creating a basketball map where we can make a lot more use out of this feature!

AnimaI · Oct 19, 2023

komikoza "It is fun to witness no doubt about it, I laugh every time, but I'm also of the opinion it has to be gone from the game. "

I STRONGLY DISAGREE. I and others
(such as PurePeppermintz "I assume you mean grabbing a boomerang in midair? that's actually a very healthy mechanic, Imo.")

think it's really fun and enjoyable when it happens to us, or to others.
There's that word "fun" again. and "opinions" Oh no, I hope you can handle that.

komikoza · Oct 19, 2023

AnimaI I think you're misunderstanding, I was talking about the character launch bug when picking it up again after the 1st throw as per the GIF I posted in my response to you, not grabbing it mid-air or anything (never done it, never seen it).

AnimaI · Oct 19, 2023

komikoza

That's what I was talking about. When you pick up the boomerang from the ground after someone else threw it, it can launch you.

I think that's fun. Sure it's difficult to argue that it's not a bug, but some bugs are fun, and should maybe not be fixed. Because patching a fun bug out makes that fun part go away.

However the point I was making is that the boomerang thing is difficult to argue that it's not a bug.

But it's easy to argue that the throwing mechanism is not a bug, as I've already been doing that. It's more of a feature that may or very well may not have been originally intended.

PurePeppermintz · Oct 19, 2023

AnimaI

didn't you make this post about a mechanic with nun chucks, saying they should stay as is because it's easy and doesn't require a lot of brain power, that even a child can use it without having the same game knowledge as a more seasoned player? that contradicts the point of the trebuchet launch technique.

which is it, do you want vast skill ceiling techniques, or neutral reset comeback mechanics? i feel you argue both sides depending on which one suits your agenda best. a genuine observation.

PurePeppermintz · Oct 19, 2023

AnimaI

as for this. game developers opened this forum for suggestions.

from all that i've seen, you have only commented on posts asking for new animals, and other posts asking for nerfs and changes.

you support the animal introductions, alright thats nice.

but i only ever see you complain about anything with nerfs or changes.

you do not like change.

developers have a vision, but sometimes that vision isn't healthy.

for instance, I play dead by daylight. in that game, the developers originally intended it to play like hide and seek. however, the meta of the game is based around a chase and tag formula. instead of nerfing the chase aspect, they embraced it and added perks and features to support chasing, giving more flavor to that aspect, and started to remove unnecessary mechanics that support hiding. some still exists, but irrelevant ones got removed or reworked.

how is that any different here? please stop going to every post and instantly shooting them down, then right after condescendingly attacking their character as a person, saying things along the likes of "you just don't understand ___"
or "you must be a _____".

AnimaI · Oct 19, 2023

PurePeppermintz: "didn't you make this post about a mechanic with nun chucks, saying they should stay as is because it's easy and doesn't require a lot of brain power, that even a child can use it without having the same game knowledge as a more seasoned player? that contradicts the point of the trebuchet launch technique.
which is it, do you want vast skill ceiling techniques, or neutral reset comeback mechanics? i feel you argue both sides depending on which one suits your agenda best. a genuine observation.

Maybe you should read this message again:

AnimaI: "I see that you're trying to argue that this will bring about a level of skill that won't be as accessible to all players.
As someone who has looked into this, that isn't true. If you're on Xbox, simply press X, Y, A in rapid succession.
It's as easy as it gets. Good try on that argument, though. If it was more difficult then you'd have made a point, and I would then see that as I'm advocating for accessibility, things that require great skill maybe shouldn't be in the game.
But if you wanted to argue that route, then by saying that, you'd have to have accepted my earlier arguments in favor of accessibility, which supports keeping the weapons as they currently are.
But unfortunately for this particular context, that argument doesn't work considering pressing 'X', 'Y', 'A' is really easy."

If you had understood what I said there, you might not have just sent this message.

AnimaI · Oct 19, 2023

PurePeppermintz

In case you haven't noticed, the forum was being spammed by the same request over and over again. To nerf weapons. That's why I spent most of my time defending the weapons and those who like using them. As you can see, if there is anything I don't like about something, I generally say so.

When I don't say something, you can generally assume I've seen the post, and if I don't bitch about it, I support it. Sometimes I outright say I support it; sometimes I don't.

I've supported the new map ideas.

I like the one about the chain on the black hole map rotating around the map like the crates.
I think that would be an awesome change.

I also like Allistervf's idea about the airlock chamber which I didn't feel like replying to because I was content that Granny already said that they would probably do that. I was glad about it. But my input was obviously not needed. However, I supported it.

I supported the changes related to chat and being able to talk in game while spectating.

I supported patching non-weapon related bugs.
Feels like I have to defend my post history from you, holy shit, dude!

Leave me alone FFS.

PurePeppermintz · Oct 19, 2023

AnimaI stop harassing everyone. it's public forum, and if you keep harassing and dismissing people, I'm just as free to say whatever i like, just like you. I'll do what I want. (:

AnimaI · Oct 19, 2023

PurePeppermintz: "stop harassing everyone. it's public forum, and if you keep harassing and dismissing people, I'm just as free to say whatever i like, just like you. I'll do what I want. (:"

Currently, you're the one harassing me.

PurePeppermintz · Oct 19, 2023

AnimaI

you hold RT to grab, then you need to Press X - B - Y and release RT... or whatever your configuration is. i personally changed mine and forgot the defaults. Regardless, no it's not so easy to replicate, as it requires a sub 0.5 second frame input for the trick. that's not something you just pick up and do. it's not taught either. the nun chucks are an item, and the game teaches you to pick them up. this is not something a 6-year-old will figure out, so ease of access is not inherent. it's not the same point. and no, just because I called you out for playing two sides, does not mean i align with either. there are a plethora of sides to take, you just happen to play two that counteract each other.

I think nun chucks need a nerf as they are not fairly balanced for value in line with other items. clearly over tuned.

No, I do not think the kit attack needs to be taken out, as in combat it's fairly useless as it's launched up, and almost impossible to land a K.O on. I suggested to nerf the map mechanics, and not the mechanic as a whole. therefore, making bombs only light up when you launch via the trebuchet. for me, these do not conflict with each other. these are sound points.

PurePeppermintz · Oct 19, 2023

AnimaI meh tit for tat.

AnimaI · Oct 19, 2023

PurePeppermintz

You've ACTUALLY harassed me in this thread. I haven't actually harassed anyone here.

Kick rocks. Pound sand.

I'm done talking to you.

PurePeppermintz · Oct 19, 2023

AnimaI oki byeee

komikoza · Oct 19, 2023

AnimaI I don't think there's any common ground to be found, as it's obvious our visions of the game differ, you also seem interested in rather attacking others and defending what you find "fun" instead of trying to understand the opposite side when it comes to topics you don't agree with , and going from there instead for a healthier discussion.

Also, although I don't always say it, here are a few examples of instances where I have agreed with people's suggestions for change:

That's a wonderful list, but just because you agreed with the people doesn't take away from the points I had mentioned. Especially if those topics can be summarized as "additional content" and that is not the same category as "changing the game's mechanics".

How do you expect to know what was intended?

I could ask you the same thing given your message history and your defense of what was intended. My vision about the game's design comes from the way the developers carried it across, yours too, I reckon. That's how I expect to at least get an idea of what they were going for. Neither you, nor I will be correct in our guesses until the developer comes forward and confirms either side.

I AM open to the game changing. I just don't want nerfs.

Meaning not open to the game changing in the way you don't like, being very aggressive in some instances at that, and making sure you include yourself in every topic you disagree with so the developers can hear you better? It's very convenient to label everything "nerfs", quoting the standardization, baselining or removing the fun.

You have to understand that people complaining about 1 hit dropkick death, shovel/nunchuks, boomerang launch, this physics "trick" have valid reasons to complain about it. You find it fun? Epic, they don't though. This has nothing to do with being good at the game. This is directly related to community and player base retention, and their involvement with the game. Numbers will indeed speak in there, and from the looks of it, those are becoming largely discussed hot- topics.

If many people complain about the same thing over and over, there's a good chance there's something not right in there, something that takes away from many people's enjoyment of the game. That could always be improved in one way or another, not removed, not nerfed, not completely changed.

Even if it is an intended design decision, people may and will complain about it if they don't find it fun. This board is created to challenge the game's design choices.

Besides trebuchet, which other map designs conflict with it? Name one.

You're way ahead of me. Football and Buzz-Ball are exactly the two other modes I can name. "Works splendidly" is a subjective statement, yes.

People should be able to throw things really far.

You mean "cute chubby wobbly flappy animal blobs". Default throwing is just fine and doesn't require any boosting beyond what's intended. There are cases that are directly communicated to the player such as "you will launch a two-handed weapon farther if you release it when swinging", which is an obviously intended game mechanic with a tradeoff.

And the same concept applies to items but requires you to spin around to increase the momentum and pressing throw instead. That, and not precise-timing-dropkicking the item released during the throw.

Maybe it's something the developers didn't know when they designed it, but not necessarily something that they would have to be against.

I never said that, but yes, true. Not necessarily something they would have to support either.

This is something that can be accomplished with actual laws of physics.

This game is far from the actual laws of physics. I can't take that and "real life" arguments seriously.

I do not support the OP. I support the person who discovered this amazing technique.

Okay, but the person who discovered this technique also supports the OP calling it straight up broken regardless of whether it offers a trade-off?

They said they could easily patch it for Trebuchet (making the entire "trick" absolutely useless), but that doesn't automatically support the right to its existence. It was just them brainstorming a solution for the map they discovered the trick on.

And I hope, and will request, that the developer considers creating a basketball map where we can make a lot more use out of this feature!

Always thought Buzz-Ball is that analogue/replacement for Basketball, exactly because there is no simple way to make basketball work with the default game mechanics, so they put the "hoops" as high as possible for standard throws.

Regardless, there could be custom rules/variables introduced for specific maps, adding the variety you strive for. Without the introduction of hidden leetery that affects the entire game.

Wrayyne · Oct 19, 2023

Bruh. Why does Animal negatively argue with literally everyone on this forum that poses good points that happens to not mesh with his/her/their outlook of the game.

This example is not "fun". This is - by all accounts no matter where your basis for arguments stems from - a game-breaking exploit. Cheating in video games is not fun.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly - this requires a rework/patch immediately. I absolutely do not want to encounter full parties of 4-player teams exploiting the physic mechanics for instantaneous wins. If you think that's "fun" and adds value to the game, you're absolutely incorrect. I would experience the exact opposite of "having fun" if my opposing team utilizes this obviously-broken mechanic to immediately win games in less than 60 seconds by inputting some specific Street-Fighter combo input/cheat code that gives you instant, free wins to the game. No dude, just, no. That's not fun at all.

Animal is literally against "meta" for this game, but is all for a game-breaking exploit that would obviously inadvertently become meta because literally everyone will be executing this combo input for the free wins. I'm quitting the game if I hop into my first match of the day after I log off of here and encounter this issue in real-time, unless devs patch this out. No-skill free win exploit does not equal fun.

The wonky bridge-rope mechanics is one thing, but this? This changes everything - negatively.

Wrayyne · Oct 19, 2023

AnimaI That's rich you're talking about real-world physics now when your primary basis for argument is that it's meant to be a fun party game. Yeah dude this game's so much fun now - I can launch the football all the way across the map while my teammate is rolling towards the endzone and does a grab on it and immediately wins every time, and perfect-launch a buzz ball in the goal from my goal every time for immediate W's. Super fun.

inb4 Counterargument - "fight back & knock them before they have a chance to do it"

My guy, the possibility of doing a trick like this to make winning games simplified by breaking game design shouldn't even exist in the first place.

AnimaI · Oct 19, 2023

Wrayyne