Deaths from Punches/Weapons

Hey there.

Really enjoying the game, it's wonderful. On this note, I would like to leave my two cents on player deaths.

I think that would be my #1 criticism, related specifically to punches/kicks or weapons. I had been holding this in me for a long time up until this very clip with the Shovel (more bonus clips attached):

For context: the first clip was shortly after the round start, I didn't get damaged by anything even once before being shovel-ized. I suppose colliding with the wall somehow increased the damage taken.

Please, pardon the mild profanity in the videos.

Totally fine with environmental hazards since all maps play around that excluding the sports modes. I personally think that environment should be the only way to die - reward the people that actually play by the map rules instead of mindlessly spamming punches or weapons.

Deaths are also quite punishing outside of Non- Sports Team Matches (where you can respawn shortly after perishing). In Last Stand and Sports you will respawn only in the next round.

(For context, deaths in team sports events are rare but possible, I once got hit by a rugby ball and then ganged by enemy team which actually killed me, not sure if I got the clip but I will add if I do)

Dying from punches or weapons, in my opinion, greatly takes away from the core gameplay which revolves around interacting not just with the players, but also the map. The worst part of this possibly being absolutely helpless in such situations... As in, there is no room for counter-play, you often die while knocked out.

I am fairly positive that if you get hit by super punches (can powerup) or weapons (such as shovel or nun-chuks) you get a bunch of hit points taken away from you, so, for example, you're more likely to die on Ichiban from Poisonous Gas compared to, say, a player who hasn't been hit. I think launching players or knocking them out would be enough, taking away hit points might be an overkill.

Since the system is not shown to players, it's pretty understandable that they get confused by "weird" deaths.

I also think there's a stark contrast between, for example, a crossbow/boomerang/inflated-hammer (which I consider what balanced weapons should be) and shovel/nun-chuks/pan, the latter are straight up lethal and are a no-brainer pick over the former, they are not exactly rare either.

This would conclude my opinions and propositions. Thanks for reading! I would like to hear others' takes on this topic and, maybe, hear from the developers on this.

Allistervf I see what you mean, let me reiterate:

In the context of "Typhoon" as a map you have highlighted a problematic spot, which I agree with completely. It basically gives invincibility to being overboard for some considerable time until the water level rises further forcing players to get out (map hazard intensity increase).

You also mention that spam-punching them is basically the only way to punish them (unless you can score a lucky grab that gets them out), which in your opinion makes it a necessary game mechanic.

I won countless games with it, and I will keep using that spot regardless of whether I get spam-punched or not. Because it in most cases it is still better than being anywhere else at the top of the sub because of the rail.

Removing that rail (and only that rail) would mean that people could be rather easily taken out of it when knocked out, which would solve the issue of people being stuck/hard camping it and further reinforce the core idea/common design choice seen throughout all of the last stand and arcade maps - eliminating players via map hazards:

• Ichiban - K.O. and throw them into the gas.
• Typhoon - K.O. and throw them overboard/into the pits.
• Broken Arrow - K.O. and throw people off the plane.
• Wind Tunnel - K.O. and throw people below the platform or into the fans.
• Winter is Coming - K.O. and throw people into the snow/on the ice.
• Ice Breaker - K.O. and throw people into the water.
• Blackhole Lab - YK.O. and throw people into the pit or make sure they can't grab onto things. 
• Beat-Up Bridge - K.O. and throw people off the bridge.
• Gator Valley - K.O. and throw people into the water.

And the list goes on. Moreover, the map hazards increase in intensity each round to prevent stagnation.

This is where I believe the fun part begins to suffer with the mentioned punch/weapon deaths. It collides with the well-thought-out map design.

I get launched by a punch off the bridge and die? Sucks, but perfectly fine. Bomb sends me into space? Hilarious, you love to see it. I get knocked out and thrown off? Good. These are scenarios where I lose within the map rules, seemingly the core philosophy of the game.

Now compare that to any of my videos above like being spam-punched by 4 different people with no chance to do anything or being knocked out repeatedly by the shovel as I can't even get up. Doesn't that feel... Underwhelming in comparison? It doesn't matter whether you're on the receiving or the giving end to be fair. I don't find it fun when my opponent just falls dead after a punch either. I want to execute them in style, which is, again, provided by map hazards.

Not sure if I got my point across, but that's about the most comprehensive explanation I can give on it.

I am curious though: could you provide a list of the same problematic spots on other maps? From the top of my head, Typhoon is the only map that has a spot like that.

DeadAimBow Could you expand on the cases where you think it would be a bad thing? I'm only suggesting it in the context of damage not taken by map hazards (e.g., only deaths via punches/kicks/headbutts/weapons being gone).

Increasing hp or lowering object damage, for example, won't really save from the things that occur in the videos attached to the OP. In contrast, if in the attached videos the character would not die, it would:

1. Make weapon spamming/camping obsolete as they no longer deal damage (excluding climbing cases, which are mostly hilarious and often can be countered).

2. Incentivize players to drop the weapon more often and eliminate others via a map hazard as the weapon itself won't kill (so there's no reason to spam it over and over; it could still keep you in perpetual knockout state until you get eliminated by a map hazard, but there's more room for other players to join in on the fun, and for you to recover).

Also, I am not sure if I understand how just getting beaten to death is fairer than being beaten to death by weapons.

Adding new observations to this:

600 hours and 5 months in I still don't understand the point of these deaths vs hazard wipes. The more information I find out and confirm, the more confused I get.

For the sake of simplicity, I will be talking in the context of "deaths that happen due to player damage" e.g. players beating other players.

Important things I've learned overtime:

• The devs actually changed the Deaths in Sports Modes (Football, Soccer or Buzzball), maybe a month after this thread was created. Now instead of a death with no respawn, it's a long time KO with your screen blurring. Essentially this is a camouflaged/bandaided death, which I don't know why it was done instead of just banning the death condition (I suspect game logic/engine issues), but it's better than just dying with no way to respawn like back then.

• Either it was changed, or players just got better, but taking people off the Typhoon guard rails stopped being a problem long ago (and with one of the late 2023 updates, you can no longer camp-stand in there as the water level will kill you because devs actually doubled down on the MAP HAZARD concept).

• HP regenerates. If you watch my OP clips here, you can see me dying quickly, that happens because I get focused and receive too much damage in a short timeframe. If you stay away from combat (don't get hit or have your hp reduced in general) for some time, you will be able to withstand punishments again.

• Damage intake is map based (as well as other variables) (most surprising part for me as this makes things all the more confusing). You can't die from player received damage on Conveyor as an example whereas you can die if you stay too long on the metal part in front of the conveyor belts. Why is this a thing on this map but not the others? Ironically, this exception makes playing the map a slog due to the initial conveyor belt speed, where you can always make a quick recovery until 1 minute is left on the timer or you get bomb blasted (or shot at with taser or ice gun). People just stand in front mostly avoiding the fights. More often than not it ends up in a last man standing scenario. There is also a semi-confirmed speculation that weapon damage differs from map to map, so for example in Lolipop Madness you can kill people with Lolipop weapon in 2-3 swings as opposed to other maps.

• "Play dead" mechanic, whose sole reason for existence is related to the actual death mechanic, is not used by many, if it's used then the players who try it often perish shortly after, in general it does not seem to be useful, pretty much obsolete in matches vs experienced players.

At some point all weapons seemed to have more damage on them, but that was nerfed/reduced so you wouldn't die as often. Or maybe the regeneration rate was reduced. It hasn't been disclosed anywhere and it's honestly hard to tell. I can only speculate and go with the feel.

At present, in 2024, as per the latest version 1.5.3.0 we have this restored to those earlier values or somewhere close.

So now nunchuks can kill you in a couple hits (headshots and/or random), or you can kill people with 3 headbutts on the head when you are under the effect of Spinach, or Pan and Lolipop killing people quickly again (Ichiban is a good example).

The funny thing is the Shovel remains nerfed and will not kill anything as quickly as the other mentioned weapons. This leaves me wondering why it was nerfed in the first place if things are like this again now.

This is confusing, and I'm not sure what else to say besides that. I still personally believe that deaths should only be exclusive to map hazards. ¯\ (ツ)/¯